Jihadi Jew and I both have a burning passion to connect with God, and to explore Godcenric and spiritual solutions to dehumanisation and the individual suffering of helplessness. We connected through our separate faith journeys. Jihadi Jew (aka Lee Weissman) has retired from the teaching profession and he continues to teach others in his own connection with God. When I attend his weekly classes the texts and his interpretation of them and the ensuing group discussion reveals another piece of this puzzle for me.
Jihadi Jew and I each agree that God lives in each of us, that includes The Other. Loving God means loving everyone, including those I loathe deeply and madly. Therefore humanisation is a holy obligation for me, in my view, to use Catholic nomenclature. To love God means to love our fellow man, the obstacle to love lies within us, within me, Bad Hijabi, within Jihadi Jew, within you, reader. We embark on this project together to show people that the solutions to the chaos and perils afflicting our world lie within each of us. We decided to begin with a solid foundation, David Livingstone Smith’s scholarship on dehumanisation.
In light of the rising antisemitism and growing hate crimes toward the Jewish community, in light of the recent Quran burning by IDF soldiers, we both feel it’s time to take responsibility and seek solutions that serve humanity and bring lasting nonviolent and peace.
For this episode we each watched David Livingstone Smith’s University of New England November 2023 Ludcke Lecture, titled Real Horror: The Power and Peril of Dehumanization in preparation for our one hour discussion.
Below is a summary and the conversation transcript.
Show Notes
Summary :: In this conversation we explore a theory of dehumanization and the role it plays in conflicts and violence. We delve into the idea that humans can easily be convinced to do horrible things and distance themselves from their own capacity for monstrous behavior. Jihadi Jew and Bad Hijabi also touch on the use of religion as a driving force in dehumanizing the other and the need for a nuanced understanding of human beings. We emphasize the importance of recognizing the inherent dignity of all individuals and the dangers of essentializing and demonizing others.
Our conversation explores the dehumanization and war, the impact of military operations on the young people enlisted, the role of religion in promoting empathy and humility, the psychological effects of war on soldiers, the dark humor and dehumanization on social media, and the human tendency to rank and classify others. We discuss the importance of understanding and empathy in conflict resolution and the need to address social contagion and propaganda. We touch on the exploitation of helplessness and the designation of scapegoats in conflicts.
Keywords :: dehumanization, theory, violence, conflict, religion, essentializing, demonizing, dignity, dehumanization, war, military operations, religion, empathy, humility, psychological effects, social media, dark humor, conflict resolution, understanding, empathy, social contagion, propaganda, exploitation of helplessness, scapegoats
Takeaways
Dehumanization plays a significant role in conflicts and violence, as it allows people to distance themselves from their own capacity for monstrous behavior.
Religion can be used as a force multiplier to promote a particular political ideology and can contribute to dehumanization.
It is important to recognize the inherent dignity of all individuals and to avoid essentializing and demonizing others.
Understanding the deep hurts and experiences that lead individuals to engage in violence can help in finding ways to prevent it. Dehumanization is a dangerous aspect of war that can lead to further violence and perpetuate cycles of conflict.
Religion can play a role in promoting empathy and humility, which are essential for conflict resolution.
Understanding and empathy are crucial in engaging in productive conversations and finding peaceful solutions.
Social media can contribute to dehumanization and the spread of harmful ideologies, but it can also provide insights into the minds of soldiers and the impact of war.
The human tendency to rank and classify others can contribute to the devaluation of certain groups and the perpetuation of conflict.
Addressing social contagion and propaganda is important in countering harmful narratives and promoting understanding and peace.
AI-Generated Titles
The Use of Religion in Dehumanizing the 'Other'
Understanding the Deep Hurts that Lead to Violence The Danger of Dehumanization in War
The Human Tendency to Rank and Classify Others
Sound Bites
"Humans can easily be convinced to do horrible things and distance themselves from their own capacity for monstrous behavior."
"Religion is used as a force multiplier to promote a particular political ideology."
"Essentializing and demonizing others is a repugnant way of looking at a person."
"Well, OK, but they're just monsters."
"Like there's like some Freudian thing."
"I don't really see how this is helping."
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to the Theory of Dehumanization
03:02 The Role of Religion in Dehumanizing the 'Other'
07:21 Recognizing the Inherent Dignity of All Individuals
13:38 The Danger of Essentialising and Demonizing Others
26:01 Understanding the Deep Hurts that Lead to Violence
29:38 Dehumanization in War
38:05 The Role of Religion
46:07 Social Media and Dehumanization
50:33 The Human Tendency to Rank and Classify
56:45 Addressing Social Contagion and Propaganda
Transcript
Lee Weissman (00:01.198)
So … we're recording. So give us an introduction.
Bad Hijabi (00:09.233)
Okay, so we're talking about David Livingston Smith's Ludke Lecture about making monsters and his theory of dehumanization.
And the lecture was given, I believe the lecture was given like in November of 2023. It was just done after, a month after the October the 7th thing.
Lee Weissman (00:35.79)
Right. I was, as I was telling you before, I, he began, he began the lecture with quoting, Galant was the defense minister of, the state of Israel who said at the beginning of the really probably October 7th itself, he said, no fuel, no food. You know, we're, we're executing a complete blockade on, on Gaza.
no food, no fuel, no electricity, no water. We're dealing with human animals and we will act accordingly. And I remember thinking at the time that human animals are different from just animals, right? We accord a certain respect to animals, right? We try to protect animals. You know, you see these videos of fires, you know, and they have...
you know, people coming with slings and everything else to save the horses and people go in to save the dogs and but human animals are basically monsters and what he was saying is that these are monsters and I think that that rhetoric I think that rhetoric really worked with people and really inflamed people and the idea
Bad Hijabi (01:46.001)
Mm -hmm.
Lee Weissman (02:02.702)
the idea that people could be so monstrous. And of course, the behavior on October 7th was monstrous. The behavior on October 7th and the things that were done on October 7th, many of them were absolutely monstrous, horrible, horrible, horrible things. But they were done by human beings, right?
Bad Hijabi (02:15.569)
Mm -hmm.
Bad Hijabi (02:29.073)
That's really the important thing, saying that we distance ourselves from that. We don't want to acknowledge that we could be that person too. Like it very easily could have been you or I in that crowd of people bursting through the Kfar Aza gate that morning when all the people came in. I hope you haven't seen any of it for your sake, but—
Lee Weissman (02:56.206)
Yeah, thank God. Thank God I have not. I have not seen most of that stuff. (Bad Hijabi: Don't look at it.) No, I don't think it's going to. I don't think it's going to bring anything. It's going to bring me any good. You know it won't, but I but I but I understand that there are people that that's done by people. I also understand that. In reality, it does not get. It does not take a lot to get people to do things like that. I know.
Bad Hijabi (03:02.577)
Don't look at it, just don't.
Bad Hijabi (03:10.097)
It won't. Not you.
Lee Weissman (03:25.518)
It would be really nice, I think, if we could fantasize the world that there are these very good people and there are these very bad people and only very bad people do very bad things. That would be very nice, but I don't think that's the truth at all. I think very normal, I think very normal, reasonably healthy people can pretty easily be talked into doing horrible things. One of the things in Dave Livingston Smith's lecture,
Bad Hijabi (03:40.145)
Mm -hmm.
Lee Weissman (03:56.302)
was he talked about the lynchings in the South. And you look at the crowd and you expect to see, right? He shows a picture and what you expect to see is wild-eyed, crazy fanatics. You expect to see Klansmen and three or four Klansmen dressed up in their garb doing their thing, but that's not at all what it was. It was a big public spectacle.
Bad Hijabi (04:13.009)
Mm -hmm.
Lee Weissman (04:25.454)
and mom and dad and kids were there and, and, and.
So the question is, somehow or another, within the period of a short time, they were able to convince themselves that this was not a human being, that this was a monster, that this was the worst monster to have ever lived. That's actually what they said. The description of what happened to that young man that he described lynching, like the horrible things that were done, like his eyes were a...
Bad Hijabi (04:52.209)
And the description of what happened to that young man that he described lynching, like, you know, the horrible things that were done, like his eyes were lay gouged out and all this stuff. Like, this is like, it's like a frenzy. It's like when, you know, I don't know, it's like pack behavior or like when people just take a drug and they just get like really weird or something. Like it's, it's, it's, yeah.
Lee Weissman (05:03.086)
Yeah, well, and and in the interview of the guy in the interview of the guy from Rwanda, yes. When he asked him, he said, you know, like,
Bad Hijabi (05:27.697)
Yes.
Lee Weissman (05:32.174)
what were you doing? And his answer was, his answer was, I don't know, I can't describe it. You know, and I remember during the, during the, the riots in LA, my former wife was a psychologist. And so what she was doing is she was recording off the TV, all of the,
Bad Hijabi (05:38.961)
Mm -hmm.
Bad Hijabi (05:49.201)
Yes, I remember that.
Lee Weissman (05:58.702)
all of these interviews with rioters and with people who were robbing stores and all this stuff, looters. And again and again, the same thing happened. They would ask them, why are you doing this? And the guy would get this blank look on their face every time and go, I don't know. And it wasn't like, it wasn't a deceptive I don't know.
It was a, ‘I don't know what this feeling is. I am caught up in some mass mob mentality right now and I have absolutely no idea what my motivation is. I don't have really a political motivation. I don't have a social motivation. All I know is that I am part of this thing and this is what we're doing.’
Bad Hijabi (06:43.697)
Mm -hmm.
Bad Hijabi (06:53.713)
It's kind of social, you know, because it's like, it's a contagion. And I think this is like where we like, don't realize that we are vulnerable, all vulnerable, because we don't realize that we're connected to other people. Like there's an incentive, there's like a reward system in our brain. And there's like, you know, all this stuff, right, that we're connected. So if you see other people do that, like I just said, if you listen to Ben Shapiro,
And I think this is like where we like don't realize that we are vulnerable, all vulnerable, because we don't realize that we're connected to other people. Like there's an incentive, there's like a reward system in our brain and there's like, you know, all this stuff, right? That we're connected. So if you see other people do that, like I just said, if you listen to Ben Shapiro, and if you're in that certain mind frame, if the bad thing is just happening, Ben is like telling you the things.
And if you're in that certain mind frame, if the bad thing is just happening, Ben is like telling you the things. If you like, it's very, very likely that you're going to be swept into that thing and you're going to be believe, yes, human animals, let's level everything and shit.
Lee Weissman (07:28.782)
Right, the problem with human animals is it's one step away. It's one step away from a kind of weird genocidal thinking, right? It doesn't take very long to say—
Bad Hijabi (07:55.057)
Well, exactly.
Well, look at, and look at like, David, I can't remember if he does in this one, but in a lot of his work, he talks about like the propaganda from World War II. So he talks about like how the Japanese are portrayed. He talks about Der Stürmer and like how Jewish people were portrayed as animals and stuff. And like he's said before in other things,
Bad Hijabi (08:27.761)
Like that is like dehumanization and war go sort of go together. You need people to like see that the enemy is not really human in order for the people to agree that it's okay to go to war. Like to send a young man to war and equip him to kill somebody. Like that's like, how do you put that? How do you make that young man feel like that's a good thing to do? When I was learning how to be a nurse,
and just to poke somebody's finger, like the most mommy mental thing ever. To know that I was inflicting pain on someone, that's big. And you have to like program a young person to like, it's okay to kill somebody. That's not normal to even watch somebody die. I don't know if you have like your experience with death and stuff, but it's very profound. It is, yes. And you, the only way you can not feel,
that is if you like we've talked about before shut off your ethics chip that's dangerous because then you become that person who thinks that we're dealing with human animals we can like you know and then you can just say well everyone belongs to Hamas how can you disprove that and then well you know people who belong to Hamas don't deserve to live anyway
You should have your house blown up and stuff. Like, I really, can we talk about that? I really have a problem with that. Like, I have a problem with blowing up somebody's house because there are terrorists. I come from a country where we don't do that. And I, like, I'm living in a very, like, low density population country. So like, you know, we don't need to have extreme solutions. And maybe that's part of the problem is when a lot of people live together.
and stuff. Like, I really can we talk about that? I really have a problem with that. Like, I have a problem with blowing up somebody's house because they're terrorists. I come from a country where we don't do that. And I, like, I'm living in a very, like, low density population country. So like, you know, we don't need to have extreme solutions. And maybe that's part of the problem is when a lot of people live together. Like,
like solutions have to be extraordinary. But I really did like, I'm having a problem with like, your house needs to be blown up because you're a criminal. Like, you know?
Lee Weissman (10:25.742)
Yeah Well, that was that was well, especially because it's really it's really collective punishment because it's not your house. I mean, you know that the you know, the the living pattern of Palestinians is not like Israelis generally have single, you know have single family homes or single family apartments and things like that and and that's not
how Palestinians live. Palestinians tend to live more close together, a lot more people. A family house is not you and your wife and your kid, it's your parents and your grandparents. It would be your sister and her husband and their kids. So you're looking more like a family compound. So essentially, it's -
Bad Hijabi (11:13.361)
I was, yeah, I was reading about Jabalia last night and they were saying that like, the way people build their families is they just like, they build another level of their house and they just all stay together and stuff and they don't like have independent. And they figured out that this way of living is like actually like part of the resistance. It's because like, it's very hard to defeat that if everybody lives all together all the time, right?
Lee Weissman (11:22.062)
Right. So obviously this becomes a form of collective punishment. It's also interesting, I have to say, I always wonder whether this is the case. I've never said this publicly before. But it's interesting that the Quran, in describing the oppressor, the definition of an oppressor is a person who destroys your houses. A person who fights you is one thing, but once they start destroying your houses,
Bad Hijabi (12:08.465)
Mm -hmm.
Lee Weissman (12:17.23)
that becomes, that takes it to another level. And it's interesting that it plays right into, it plays right into that verse. And it makes things so much worse. I don't think it's ever been a very good policy. But once again, I think it's based on, we're destroying the rat's nest. And that's - And how much of that is, I read something that said,
Bad Hijabi (12:41.841)
Like, and like how much of that is like, I read something that said, Golda Meier was like, how can you expect us to be a minority in our own country? Like there's that need to be like the dominant, you know, population. I mean, that, and like, let's face it, that is a reality. I mean, so how do you, how do you manage that without like dehumanizing and without like all of that, right?
Lee Weissman (12:46.318)
Well, I...
Bad Hijabi (13:10.257)
Because then, I'll just add, like it seems like the point of Israel would be defeated if Jewish people were not the majority. But then that's kind of problematic because how do Jewish people maintain the majority over Arabs?
Lee Weissman (13:12.718)
And that's the problem. But obviously the plan of dehumanization and military control hasn't been successful. I mean, that's...
Bad Hijabi (13:37.585)
No.
Lee Weissman (13:38.67)
That's the bottom line. I think that if we're kind of looking at the situation as it is now, you know, this is not successful. Israel is not, you know—
Bad Hijabi (13:46.993)
Well, and like the whole history of Hamas, you know, nobody wanted to talk about that. I think it's been seven months. It's been long enough now. Like, why did Hamas exist in the first place? Who let that happen? Who knew that it was happening? And who was like, ‘this is really good, the Palestinian Authority is never going to be able to survive this. They're never going to be able to achieve statehood.’ I mean, I've read that a number of times that, you know,
Lee Weissman (14:04.558)
Right, I think it's, right, I think, you know, these kind of political machinations that we think these people may be better for us or these people are worse for us will invite, you know, will invite the Brotherhood because they're going to mess everybody up, you know, and...
we hate Yasser Arafat more than we hate these people. And also that these are religious people that they talk a lot, but they don't do a lot. So we don't have to worry about them too much. I mean, there's a lot going on there. There's a lot going on there. And I will say the dehumanization definitely goes on both sides. I see, especially now, I see, I'm...
Bad Hijabi (14:49.457)
Just, yeah … Yes.
Lee Weissman (14:59.182)
privileged because I have a lot of Palestinian friends and whatever. I get to see all the stuff on Instagram and all the stuff I get from everybody. And it is amazing how the language of demonization has kind of crept into, you know,
the whole discussion about Zionism, Zionists are demons, Zionists are tannic, and the idea that these are demons, I've seen literally demons on two feet and whatever else, that idea that the Israelis are somehow monsters, of course they're not monsters, they're 18 year old, they're mostly scared 18 year old kids, who don't have a lot of experience in the world.
Bad Hijabi (15:53.041)
Yeah.
Lee Weissman (15:57.486)
And who have and now have to face, and you said it very nicely, you know, that the nurses dilemma of pricking the finger, they have to face the very human resistance to killing another person, you know, or harming another person.
Bad Hijabi (16:18.417)
That's hard. My, my late husband was, his dad was a Lancaster bomber pilot. And, like we talked about that, like coming back and he wasn't physically injured. He was so messed up in the head. Like you can't send men over there to kill people, like killing machines, like, you know, like they're like the exterminator or something and expect that it's going to be okay.
Bad Hijabi (16:48.913)
Like you just can't. Like several generations paid for that. I like, like my, nobody in my family went to war and I paid for this war. Like we don't talk about that. We just have remembrance day and stuff and we're supposed to like glorify it and things and like that's supposed to make it better. And like, I don't know. Like, and I think war is necessary, but like, I like … nobody in my family went to war and I paid for this war. Like, we don't talk about that. We just have Remembrance Day and stuff and we're supposed to like glorify it and things and like that's supposed to make it better and like I don't know. Like, and I think war is necessary, but like I just have a dilemma with that and I have a dilemma with the way both sides are handling like themselves.
I just have a dilemma with that. And I have a dilemma with the way both sides are handling like themselves. And I feel like religion is really like a driving force in like how we perceive the ones that are not belong to us. Like I've been long to two religions now. And I remember seeing sitting through Catholic, the passion of Christ during Easter and being like, this really wants like as a kid.
And I feel like religion is really like a driving force in how we perceive the ones that are not belong to us. Like I've been long to two religions now and I remember seeing through Catholic, the passion of Christ during Easter and being like, this really wants like as a kid, this is really trying to get me to hate Jewish people. Cause it was like, right? And it's like, in my opinion, it's created for that. And then when I was in the Muslim world, it was like the Zionists, the Zionists, the Zionists.
And it's like, okay, well, did you know that there's a difference between kahanism and Zionism? And like, there's a whole thing about that and stuff. And you're like conflating a bunch of things. And like, it's like, in my opinion is created for that. And then when I was in the Muslim world, it was like the Zionist, the Zionist, the Zionist. And it's like, okay, well, did you know that there's a difference between Kahanism and Zionism? And like, there's a whole thing about that and stuff. And you're like conflating a bunch of things. And like, it's like, there is no room in my, where I saw it.
There's no room in the Muslim world for like humanizing your enemy or anything. Religion is really used as like a force multiplier to promote a particular like political ideology, which I found really repugnant because I like came into like the world after Vatican Two, so the rule in the Catholic world was we don't talk about politics. We don't use our religion to promote politics and stuff and Like, you know, my mother was a big Holocaust person that we knew what we learned all about that and stuff, right? So like I just really find religion disappointing I find you like to be one of the very few religious people who like are leading the way to God and I'm not like don't let your head go get big or anything. But you know, I'm sure I'll be mad at you next week about something that but you know, like, it's really disappointing. Like religion is really not helping and it could help. Like it really could.
Lee Weissman (19:09.326)
Well, I think we've I think we've lost. I think we've lost first. First of all, one of the problems with religion, I told you the other day, if you wanted me to rag on religion, I could just do that for hours. But
I mean, one of the issues by religion is that there is a very strong emphasis on us and them, right? And I would say between Judaism and Islam, there's some differences between the way that us and them works. In Judaism, the us and them is defined primarily ethnocentrically, right? That's pretty much, it's really an ethnic difference, right, with a kind of religious component attached to it. And in the Muslim case, you know, Al -Adina, those who do this, those who believe X, it's less based on ethnicity and more based on behavior or belief, but still there's us and there's them.
What's weird about Judaism and Islam is that both of them also have a third category. There's us and them, and then there's not quite us but not quite them. And actually, Jews and Muslims fit into that category with each other, right? So in Judaism, right, we have the idea that there are people who are non -Jewish monotheists, ethical monotheists, right? And those people that go called Geratoshav or B 'nei Noach, there are many different ways of talking about it. But they follow, they follow, they're of religion. There are people, there are people of religion, they're believers, so to speak. And they are not us, right? But they're not not us, right? And Muslims would fit pretty solidly into that. And for Muslims, Jews are Ahlul -Kitaab,
They're believers, right? They're people who believe in the one God and they have a book. And so they're not us, but they're not not us. And those would be very useful categories, right? If we could, if people really lived with those categories and said, okay, so this is not really an us and them situation between Muslims and Jews, but this is a not not us and not not them situation, then maybe we could, maybe we would have sort of a firmer, kind of grounds to stand on together. But having said that, that's not the way most people in the world see it.
Bad Hijabi (22:11.217)
What I don't understand is that we all believe that everyone that was made by God. So how come something, sometimes some people that God made are not okay and others are based on like who's in your tribe? It's very obvious to me that it's like a tribe thing, that this is to serve the humans of the tribe and it's not actually God. Cause you think that God wants me to like be like, you don't belong to my group, you can't play. You know what I mean? I always had a problem with that.
Lee Weissman (22:29.454)
There's a weird sort of tension in religion, I think, between these kind of tribal loyalties. Now listen, even the Torah.
So Torah says that all humanity is created by Tzalim Elohim. It's in the image of God, right? There's also a hadith like that also that also says the same thing. And scholars argue back and forth, what does it mean? God doesn't have an image, what does that mean? Does it mean that people have rationality, that they have moral choice? What exactly does it mean? But one thing we do mean, no, it does mean, is that all human beings have an inherent right to dignity. And even the Torah says, if you hang somebody, right, if you hang somebody, you don't leave them hanging up there, okay? So … whether you should hang people or not—
Bad Hijabi (23:38.577)
This is kind of like, this is like the pictures we see on Twitter of the unfortunate folks in Iran hanging from the cranes and stuff like that. Like this kind of thing is really like extreme cruelty.
Lee Weissman (23:46.574)
Right, right, right. Like this kind of thing. Right. It says you don't leave somebody up there because it's insulting to the dignity of a human being. Okay, let's say you've done justice. You believe that this is done justice. Okay, do justice. Okay, if this you think this is justice, okay, you did it and fine. But don't flaunt it.
Don't flaunt it and say, look at me, look what I did to another human being. So that's, and I think that the Torah very solidly does not want us to imagine the monstrous, or to create in our minds this monstrous other, but there's something inside of us.
that goes there so easily. That goes there so easily. And there's something very psychologically satisfying about that. And we know that because there's a whole like literature about it. There's a -
Bad Hijabi (24:48.497)
Yeah, David does say repeatedly, like I've watched a few of these things, I have all of his books and stuff, and he repeatedly says, this is a psychological process. This is something that happens in people's minds. Like, you know, and he like, that's kind of sort of why, how do you watch that? Because this fascinates me. He's very specifically talking about the thing that we all do in our head where we have decided that it's like, this person's a subhuman. And I love how he talks about like essentializing, like making a person all about whatever essence you've attributed to them.
When I was struggling with leaving Catholicism, I had a problem with all this like original sin and all of this stuff and dualism and all this stuff like that. Because I really think it lends us to that way of thinking and to that dehumanization and humans are like, you know, Lego, you know, people and you could like just, you know, we're just like a head and you can just remove the head. Like, you know, like that's really like, to me, that's really a repugnant way of looking at a person. Like that they're just like parts, like Lego parts that you can just, and there's nothing inside. But then the danger of seeing, you have a soul
Lee Weissman (26:01.646)
Right.
Bad Hijabi (26:14.001)
is like maybe your soul doesn't match your body and then we have like a Dracula situation where Dracula is really beautiful but he's really evil. Know what I'm saying?
Lee Weissman (26:29.166)
I think it's very challenging to carry inside of yourself a nuanced understanding of a human being. You see these guys, I say guys because it's almost always guys, who can do horrible things? Who can do horrible things? And they do horrible things. October 7th, horrible thing, horrible things.
And when you find out about who these people are, you find out that they love their mothers, you know, they love their mothers, they played with their kid siblings, you know, that they had lives, that they had friends. It would be nice if people were really monstrous.
It would be, it would be nice. It would be easier for us to be mad at them. It would be and it's much easier to kill them that way, right? We can, right? It's much easier to kill them that way. But whether or not that's reality or not, you know, I don't think it's, I don't think it's reality.
Bad Hijabi (27:18.929)
would be easier for us to be mad at them and stuff, right? And punish them. Exactly.
Bad Hijabi (27:34.225)
And like one thing my mom taught me, my mother was a refugee of domestic violence. So she had an experience before I was born. And she made an effort to explain to me that people are violent because they're hurting. Like in this case, this man who tried to kill her and her life was ruined and stuff and she had to run away and recover. She made a point of saying like, he's not evil.
Lee Weissman (27:44.014)
And she made an effort to explain to me that people are violent because they're hurting. Like in this case, this man who tried to kill her and her life was ruined and stuff and she had to run away and recover. She made a point of saying, like, he's not evil. He's like a normal guy who came from a big family and his parents failed and he was beaten as a kid and he never knew any love and stuff. And, you know, not that that's an excuse, but.
Bad Hijabi (27:59.985)
He's like a normal guy who came from a big family and his parents failed and he was beaten as a kid and he never knew any love and stuff. And, you know, not that that's an excuse, but like anybody who's worked with rescue animals knows that animals who are repeatedly mistreated and not, you know, made to feel like they're human will lash out at you. And it takes a lot of work and patience to like bring those animals back and make them behave loving, them loving themselves. So like, I don't know how this is any different. Well, yeah, but, but, but that's an excuse. It's not excuse. It's an excuse. Not that that's an excuse, but see people are like, you're excusing terrorism. No, I'm not. I'm trying to understand why people do these things. Then we can stop it.
Lee Weissman (28:43.214)
Right. And it's interesting. I think some years ago, there was a film that did a series of interviews with people who were kind of training themselves for...
suicide attacks. It was very interesting because they were not the broken people you would imagine, right? They were college educated. They were above average education. They were above average financially, but they did carry around deep hurts.
You know, it would be nice to be able to ignore all that and say, well, OK, but they're just monsters. But they're just monsters. And I think that that strategy, the problem with that strategy is it doesn't go anywhere. I mean, we're just going to keep. Well, it makes us monsters too. Right. Because I often think that all of that is, to a degree, that's a projection.
Bad Hijabi (29:59.889)
Well, it makes us monsters too, because I often think that all of that is like, to a degree that's a projection. Like there's like some Freudian, I'm not going to like, you know, totally go into it, but I think there's some like Freudian thing. Like if you, Freudian could have a field day with all of this stuff, because I really think it's like a reflection of yourself when you see somebody do something bad in a situation, you're like, they're a monster. And then you're like, okay, like I wanna eliminate you, blow up your house and stuff. Like I really, like I think it's very poisonous. Like, and I'm not saying again, it was awful. Like you said, we both have acknowledged just horrible. I've seen every, all of the footage. I absolutely like, don't excuse any of it, but I don't really see how this is helping. Like I don't see how this continued military operation and putting young people—
Like they could be my son, I have a son who's 37. Like, like every young man I see who dies in combat, I'm like, wow, that could be Logan, you know, or like, you know, they send girls into combat. It could be your daughter or my daughter. Like I think about that and the mom, I can't help it. And I don't see how this is helping. And to be very honest, I don't know about on the American side, but like, like it's almost like you're recruiting for Hamas.
Or like, you know, they send girls into the combat. It could be your daughter or my daughter. Like, I think about that. I'm a mom, I can't help it. And I don't see how this is helping. To be very honest, I don't know about on the American side, but like, it's almost like we're recruiting for Hamas on campuses right now. People are very angry. And like, maybe there's wrong information being, and people are making decisions, you know, with emotional brain and stuff.
on campuses right now, people are very angry. And like, maybe there's wrong information being, and people are making decisions, you know, with emotional brain and stuff.
But like this is not helping anyone and the hostages are still not home and there's survivors from the trauma that are struggling that we never hear about. And I've heard some terrible things that not all the survivors of the Kubbutzim attacks survived. Some of them could not survive their aftermath. Like we don't hear about this stuff. We just hear about how Ben Gvir and Bibi are really mad and they want revenge. What is that? What's revenge? How's that helping anybody?
Lee Weissman (32:03.886)
Yeah, well, I don't want to get too far off the topic. No, I don't either. I don't want to get too far afield.
Bad Hijabi (32:11.537)
No, I don't either. But I think, but I'm just mentioning that because like, I think that like the dehumanization and the war thing go together. And every time we hear about how, okay, we need to say stop and stuff, everybody's like, but look at their monsters. And how can you let these people live and stuff like that. And I just think like, no, that's wrong.
Lee Weissman (32:27.022)
Everybody's like, but look at their monsters and how can you let these people live and stuff like that? And I just think like, no one's gonna call. Right, so we need to root out the monsters when, you know, and I...
That's not going, you know, that's clearly, I mean, I'm no political expert. I'm not a military expert. I don't claim to be. But it doesn't seem to me as a layman that that can possibly work, right? Because you've generated so much anger and resistance and whatever remains, you know, I mean, whatever is going to rise again.
Bad Hijabi (32:52.113)
No.
Bad Hijabi (33:01.841)
And so what I, why I think it's exactly.
Lee Weissman (33:13.774)
in the place of Hamas is not going to be something you're going to like.
Bad Hijabi (33:18.321)
Well, and something will rise. You like they're creating a vacuum like they always do. And so I think the thing is like the cool thing about David's video that we both watched is he did say at the end, like there are things you can do, which is like what's really how I think religion, like how I'm using it, why I've left few religions and I'm seeking certain things because I think religion is to help me behave myself.
To be like just very like simple and blunt. It's to help me to like manage these feelings because when I sit in these classes that you teach there's always something. You know (the psalmist) David telling his, you know saying how he's like calling out in despair and stuff and like or whatever, you know, on the Wednesday thing and the trusting God and stuff like this. That's like the point we're supposed to sit and like listen to the wise person or whatever.
Tell us the things that the text says. Like it's not about, ‘my religion says this, so you need to follow these rules and you hand over your house and sh1t’. Like it's about us learning how to handle our human emotions. And so I think that like religion could be the solution because it is supposed to be about knowing yourself. Cause in my opinion, you can't know God without knowing yourself. And then you're supposed to inculcate a sense of humility. So when you're going around bragging about how you're modest, I don't really think you're inculcating a sense of humility. And the more you learn about history and things and yourself, you realize, hey, that could have been me on October the 7th. Like it could have been you or I.
Lee Weissman (35:10.19)
There was a rabbi, Rabbi Menachem Froman Zikr Tzadik Lebraha who passed away a few years ago and he was actually the rabbi of a settlement. He was a settlement rabbi in the settlement of Tekoa and he had a very close relationship with his Arab neighbors and he believed that the solution to the problem would be a religious one and that he had to give respect to Islam and respect to Islamic leaders.
And in case he met with Hamas on many occasions and he went to Sheikh Yassin, the blind sheikh of Hamas, the really one of the spiritual founders of Hamas, and he met with him many times and he said to him, he said, ‘Yassin, I'm telling you this as a fellow man of God that you're going to go to hell. He says, what you're doing and the way that you're doing it, this is not the way to do it. And … this is the idea that somehow another killing innocent people is a legitimate form of resistance. This is going to take you to hell. And I give you this advice with love that this is a very bad idea.’ And Sheikha Yassin's response was, ‘with you, I could make peace in five minutes.’ That was his response. So what was going on there?
So I think what was going on there is that there were two people having a human encounter, right? He didn't approach him, you know, ‘Sheikh Yassin, you're a monster, I hate you.’ He's starting to say, he says, ‘listen, I'm a believer, you're a believer. Okay, I'm telling you, I'm telling you, this is really bringing you into bad and I'm trying to give you some good advice here, right?’ And I believe he was coming from a very clean, Rabbi Froman was like an angel.
Honestly, he was not like a human being. He was very spiritual and a very deep, kind, kind person. And I think that he immediately recognized that's where, was that what he said? So with you, I can make peace in five minutes. Because we're able to talk and communicate as human beings, not as monster to monster. Right? Once, by the way, once you're dealing with a monster, you know,
Lee Weissman (37:36.302)
You know, the part of your brain that, you know, if I'm, if, you know, you see this all the time. If you watch a horror movie, right? Always. Like watch a horror movie, the monster appears. And if you go to the right theater, back in the days when there used to be theaters, if you went to the right theater, everybody would tell the person what to do. Run, don't run, hide in the closet. Right? And they always did the wrong thing.
Bad Hijabi (38:00.689)
Yes.
Lee Weissman (38:05.23)
They always did exactly the wrong thing. Why? Because the frontal lobes, when you're confronted with a monster, your reptilian brain takes over.
Bad Hijabi (38:16.465)
Yeah, your amygdala is driving the bus. I call that amygdala is driving the bus. So you know, like the Harry Potter Knight bus is basically your brain is like that. And you're all of your higher thinking circuitry goes offline, your empathy circuitry where you're like, wait, I'm like, you're all everything gone. Everything gone.
Lee Weissman (38:30.606)
Right. So that's, so that's really, that's really the danger when Rabbi Froman is meeting with Sheikh Yassin. Okay. His brain is intact. He's there, right? He's there, not his crocodile. Otherwise we end up with two crocodiles wrestling with each other.
Bad Hijabi (38:53.777)
And that's like, that's why I'm talking to this guy next Wednesday afternoon. His name is Justin Sunseri. I've been talking about that because like there's a whole thing about that. It's called the Polyvagal Theory. And it's about how like you can't have these conversations and you can't meet people at the table with these solutions. If you are not in a safe social state, if your nervous system is not in a state where you, your threat, you're not, you know, in a threat state and whatever. Like if you think that someone's trying to kill you, you're not going to be able to like negotiate or whatever, be diplomatic or whatever. Okay? Like it's not like you just said, if you don't have those capabilities, you don't have that. You said in a video recently, don't talk to people when your heart is racing. That's very simple.
And that, you know what, like I forgot that I used to practice that before, like after, you know, when I was having a really terrible time and I used to like, you know, like monitor my heart and like, you know, pay attention to it and stuff. Just doing that. Like made a difference actually, like noticing yourself. And I think that's part of this, this we are disconnected from ourselves. We forget that like, we have an emotion. We feel it in our body. You know, like when your stomach is like, you know, becoming in a knot, when your heart is like, and your chest feels all, those are like signs. And we, and we like, we just ignore them because we're so imbued with our thoughts and stuff. But I really think that's like, if we're talking about how to help people, like not say, okay, let's kill everyone that, that pissed us off. I mean, that's like where we start, like helping people be like, like the simple thing that you said in your TikTok video or whatever. Don't talk to people when your heart is racing.
Lee Weissman (40:57.39)
Like don't, don't do the same things. It's very simple. You feel, you know, you, but that means also learning how to pay attention to your, to your body, right? And to know like when, you know, when you're, but I think there's another kind of dehumanization. So there's, there's the kind of, there's the kind of, you know, reptilian brain version. Then there's another version. I had a friend who was a surgeon.
And he was just a weird guy. And I noticed that surgeons tended to be weird guys. And I said, finally, ‘I said, why are you all so weird? Like, what's wrong with you?’ (Bad Hijabi: They have to cut people open). That was his answer. His answer is, his answer is, ‘I have to cut people open. He says, do you know what it takes? Like, so I have to, I have to be looking down and seeing a car. Okay.’
Bad Hijabi (41:31.729)
Yes, very weird.
Bad Hijabi (41:37.873)
They have to cut people open, man. Are you kidding? Do you even know how hard that is?
Lee Weissman (41:55.694)
‘I have to dehumanize the person until such a point as they are just mechanical and that the blood is just transmission fluid.’ I mean, that's, that's, you know, and, and I never thought about it that way, but it may—
Bad Hijabi (42:11.249)
And that's a really good point because most of my nursing career was is surgery. So I dealt with a lot of surgeons. They are, they're a special creature and they're very hard to get along with. And they're very like when you go into the OR and there's the whole positioning of the patient and stuff, like if it's wrong. This guy's gonna like he's gonna be a two years old, you know when your two -year -old didn't get a nap in your middle of the mall and he's having a meltdown and so but that makes sense because it's such a technical procedure that they have to like, you know, get all ready and they're scrubbed and they need all of their tools and shit. Like it's, it's a big thing. Like to learn how to, like, and I said before, it's big to learn how to hurt people, to help them.
Lee Weissman (42:51.47)
Yeah. I mean, I was reading about the, my potential open heart operation. I'm like, how would a person like saw through my chest bone? Like it's like, it's like—
Bad Hijabi (43:17.777)
I've watched it happen, it's really wild.
Lee Weissman (43:20.75)
You're really going to do that? Something has got to be messed up in your head to be able to do that. It's got to be bizarre. So it's got to be really weird. But at the end of the day, that's also a form of dehumanization. I saw a soldier in... It was a—
Bad Hijabi (43:29.073)
I've watched it. It's really like.
Bad Hijabi (43:38.193)
It is. It's very, very weird.
Lee Weissman (43:50.798)
It was one of those weird situations where there are people who go online. There was a young Arab man went online and random people just kind of come online with him. And this Israeli soldier came online and says, you're an Israeli soldier? Yes. Are you in Gaza? Yes. He says, how many people have you killed?
Because 20, it's about 20. And he says, how many of them, how many of them were children or something like that? And he said, he said, there are no civilians in Gaza. Everybody, I only see Hamas. I only see Hamas. There are no civilians here. That's what he said. But all of this -
Bad Hijabi (44:43.761)
That's for his own mental protection, I bet, you know?
Lee Weissman (44:50.126)
That's for his own mental protection, I bet. Right, but all of this, and you could see in this. You could see in his face a kind of blandness. It was more like the surgeon. It was more like the surgeon than the person the horror film was finally going after, the monster. It was kind of like, in order for me to do this, this is how I have to think. And you know what's really sad about that? Like that stuff.
Bad Hijabi (45:16.145)
And you know what's really sad about that? Like that stuff, like we're damaging those men because, you know, I've watched a lot. I've watched just about every Holocaust documentary and World War II documentary because it's one of my obsessions. And one of the things that moves me is seeing old men who are like 40 years out of war remembering those times. And they probably haven't spoken to their wives about it or their kids or anybody. And they're having this interview and they're moved to tears by something that happened 50 years ago. This is a man who doesn't cry like men's hearts are not known and you know things like that right and this is like it's like almost a universal truth that like that it just it, we don't see how sending young people to war to kill other people and telling them this is really good that you're killing this human animal. ‘You did really good, good for you’.
I mean, like I remember in the early days, hearing the videos of the Hamas, you know, people, kids being like, mom, I killed 10 Zionists and stuff. And mom being like, we're so proud of you. And people being really repulsed by that. So how is that any different? well, I killed 20 people and they're not really, you know, like. Am I supposed to be impressed by that because that guy's wearing an IDF soldier as opposed to like sporting a Hamas membership?
Lee Weissman (46:43.278)
Well, I would say one of the differences is there's a difference in style. There's a difference in style. I think for the most part, for the most part, I've certainly known a lot of IDF soldiers of my day. And I don't remember anybody like to sort of bragging about how many people they killed. I mean, it's sort of ...
Bad Hijabi (47:07.601)
Mm -hmm.
Lee Weissman (47:13.294)
The military approach is different, right? The military teaches you to say things like, I did what I had to do, things like that as opposed to—
Bad Hijabi (47:24.689)
Yeah, I think it's important that they have like a guide. Like they seem to, from what I've seen, I don't know if this is just creating an image, but I've seen like they're guided by a moral code and stuff like that. But I mean, they ultimately they're soldiers at war and they are being forced into a situation that is not really human. So all humans have limits.
Lee Weissman (47:42.574)
Yeah. And there are TikTok addicted teenagers also, which is the other, I mean, the dimensions of this particular war is strange because, you know, TikTok has kind of, has become, TikTok and Instagram and these things have given us a, a window into the mind of the soldier in a way that we never had before. Because now all of a sudden we have these TikToks where the soldiers are talking about this. They're doing these little performances of how they understand what it is that they're doing. And some of them are really quite horrific. And part of it is also that
Bad Hijabi (48:18.929)
Yeah.
Lee Weissman (48:40.942)
I think that the dark humor of this, of Gen Z or whatever it's called, is that they have kind of a darker humor. But it's very telling and usually almost always involves some sort of dehumanization. If you're playing with people's personal effects, what is that?
What does that saying on the one hand?
Bad Hijabi (49:09.361)
Yeah, like I've seen a lot of those things when I used to follow like Documenting Israel or something and they'd show like, I think this young man, like he has this idea of friends or something and they would show them going into the houses and looking at people's things and stuff. Like I remember when I used to go and look after cats or, you know, do things in people's homes and I felt really like I'm in somebody's home. Like I shouldn't touch their things. Like I felt like really like, this person's trusting me and like, I'm an alien and I was aware that I didn't belong there and stuff. And it's very almost understandable, like you said, but it's a bit disconcerting to see this familiarity of like this person who conquered this place, walking through the house with their military gear, you know, sort of acting like everything is theirs and acting like they're at home.
And so like in religion, we're taught like to act like you're a guest. Like that's what you just said, like on Wednesday or whenever, Monday or something. I have some time this past week was like, be a guest, you know, like always, you know, walk through the world like you don't own everything. Remember that, right? So I've sort of feel like letting ourselves, to act like you're a guest. That's what you just said on Wednesday or whenever, Monday or something … some time this past week was like, be a guest. Always walk through the world like you don't own everything. Remember that, right? So I sort of feel like letting ourselves have too much familiarity with other people's faces and like, have too much familiarity with other people's faces and like it's a whole psychology. It's like you said and like what does TikTok do and what do all these things do? You know, like what does that do to the psyche? It is a very different war than any war we've had before.
Lee Weissman (50:37.198)
It's a whole psychology. It's like you said, and like, what does TikTok do? What do all these things do? You know, what does that do to the psyche? It is a very different war than any war we've had before. Like. Yes. Yeah. And it's strange because I was just thinking about the kind of walking through the house thing and, you know, pausing to draw a mustache and a family picture. That was one that I saw.
And I thought to myself,
So this is not dehumanization because actually you're humanizing them, right? You're humanizing, you're showing some family pictures, right? You're showing their clothing, you're showing their furniture. That's not a thing that animals have. And monsters, you know, don't have family pictures, right? So you're making them human, but you're making them, but you're making them,
Bad Hijabi (51:16.913)
Mm -hmm.
Bad Hijabi (51:25.681)
Nothing.
Lee Weissman (51:38.702)
But you're making them less valuable humans. It's a way of expressing superiority. The chain of, what did he say, the chain of being? The great chain of being where we make things. I almost think, I wonder if, because we're primates, we...
Bad Hijabi (51:44.849)
It's like the chain of, the chain of, what did he say? You know, the chain of being, the great chain of being where we rank things. And like, I think, I almost think, I wonder if, because we're primates, we, like, can we really get away from hierarchizing things? We love to rank things, because don't, isn't that what primates do? We rank things, because that's how we live in our world.
Lee Weissman (52:00.366)
Like, can we really get away from hierarchizing things? We love to rank things. Yes. Isn't that what primates do? We rank things. Right. That's how we live in the world. Right. That's a big part of what human beings do. I mean, we're constantly ranking things. And we love taxonomies of all kinds, you know. And we're always trying to put things in their place. And...
My daughter went to bird watching camp. And I remember we were very careful about identifying the birds. And I remember one thing, so I'm thinking like, what, of what benefit is it to the world that I know the names of different kinds of birds? Like I know the name of like a million different kinds of reptiles, cause that was always interested in as a kid. And I know there are Latin names and this and that. So like, what use is that to anybody? I don't know, you know. It's something that helps you or your brain be formed.
Bad Hijabi (52:51.569)
It's something that helps your brain be formed. My kids are, my son and daughter are like Jurassic kids and they love dinosaurs and they would be like, that's actually not a whatever, this is like, like you got this seven year old kid telling you all about paleontology. It's like, I encourage that. You know, I like, I just think that knowledge acquisition is sort of like, a comfort thing or it's like a way to understand and to like like for me anyway like I told you I like I'm obsessed with knowing everything because like I want to understand everything and then it just makes me like okay that's that like it's not anything this is just this way because of xyz right then you don't have to get excited about it I mean maybe stuff is still shitty but I mean like if you can understand why a person is that way, then maybe you don't need to like, dehumanize them and stuff.
Lee Weissman (53:53.326)
Yeah, I think the classification of human beings has never worked out so great. I mean, when I was a kid, we had a book, I don't know where we got it, and it was in the house, The Races of Man by Carlton S. Kuhn. And it was like, you know, it had all these pictures in it of, you know, different kinds of people, the Negroes and the Negritos. My favorite picture of it was a picture of somebody in the Trobriand Island.
Bad Hijabi (54:06.641)
yeah.
Lee Weissman (54:22.318)
was a woman and it said, a woman of a type not most favored by the natives. Which basically, this is what an ugly girl looks like in the Trobriant Islands. It's fine to me. It was very weird. But you know, it was, you know, those kinds of things and where they used to measure people's heads. And - Prenology. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Bad Hijabi (54:49.233)
the phrenology.
Lee Weissman (54:52.206)
There was a friend of mine who was an anthropologist in the Andaman Islands, and he had like a little glossary of words. And the word for arm that he had actually meant stop pinching me, right? Because the guy, they would measure them, you know, they do measurements and they would put the little pincers on them. And he said, so it's the word for arm. He said, what's this? He said,
‘Stop pinching me’. So I wrote it down, stop pinching me.
Bad Hijabi (55:25.073)
That's funny. I remember my mom telling me when I was growing up that when they knew that that I was they were having me. You know, because this was like a big thing, like a brown man from Guyana, Indian guy, like hooking up with a white woman. Everyone was curious.
When I came along, they wanted to know what I would look like, especially the Brown family, to be very honest, okay? The white family didn't care. They didn't care. They didn't care I was half Brown. The Brown people, holy Hannah, they wanted to know what I looked like. It was really funny to be like, and it like, I almost would expect like people to show up with their calipers and they're like measuring tools and shit and be like, you know?
Lee Weissman (55:47.566)
So I'm gonna have to go out now.
because it's my one hour mark and I gotta get ready for my stuff, start getting ready for my Shabbat class. So do we have final words? Well, what do we think about this?
Bad Hijabi (56:25.553)
Like, I think this is a topic worth continuing to explore because I really think religion is the answer. But I think the tension is between tribal signaling and social contagions. Because one thing I really observed in the Muslim world, the social contagion factor is very powerful. It needs to be addressed.
One thing I really observed in the Muslim world, the social contagion factor is very powerful. It needs to be addressed. In every world. It's really like this whole training on Zionism, the farming of helplessness. That's one thing we didn't talk about. David said about like, you know, propaganda or like convincing people into a thing like rage farming, exploitation of helplessness, designating a scapegoat.
It’s really like, this whole training on Zionism, the farming of helplessness. That's one thing we didn't talk about. David said about like, you know, propaganda or like convincing people into a thing like rage farming, exploitation of helplessness, designating a scapegoat, offering salvation. So in this case, like we have, the Jews, the Zionists, they're evil. River to the sea is like a salvation, right? I think this is like, I feel like that's where the Muslim world is right now. Everyone's obsessed with that. And everyone thinks that this is like the Islamophobia if you don't acknowledge that. So maybe we'll head directly into that abyss next time.
Bad Hijabi (57:21.489)
River to the sea is like the salvation, right? I think this is like, I feel like that's where the Muslim world is right now. Everyone's obsessed with that and everyone thinks that this is like the Islamophobia if you don't acknowledge that. So like, I don't know.
Lee Weissman (57:42.894)
Yes. We'll stare into that abyss next time.
Well Ok But They’re Just Monsters