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Outside the Camp

the tension between the individual and the hive mind

Outside the camp refers to isolating from the camp or group or community the unclean, ie those with infectious diseases and open sores. The Jewish texts contains references to this phrase outside the camp, another term for solitary quarantine confinement. In North American vernacular we have being cancelled, it happens when an individual commits wrong-think or blasphemes a sacred tribal idea or viewpoint. Group-thinkers send wrong-thinkers outside the camp in an effort to remain pure. What if we could flip this script, though? Elsewhere in the text, God lives at the margins. Moses pitched his tent beyond the margins of the camp in order to meet G-d. The meeting tent existed precisely because the Israelites sinned against G-d by worshipping the golden calf and He could not enter their presence. Those who wanted to meet G-d would go outside the camp to the meeting tent. The divine presence may not be readily visible among the people, but remains available on the margins, for those who seek it, writes Rabbi Jill Jacobs in God’s presence in on the Margins.

Our latest Conversation took a cool turn, Lee and I ended up spending most of the hour talking about stepping Outside the Camp in order to Seek God at the Margins. Lee tells me why he chose the moniker Jihadi Jew. He also tells me about talking young disenfranchised kids out of joining ISIS in the DMs whilst members of his faith community accused him of being a danger, also in the DMs. I have followed Lee for many years, at least 5, and I never heard him speak about this cool thing he did so quietly. I hope you enjoy listening to this Conversation as much we enjoyed making + having it.

For the truly knowledge thirsting nerds, below is the Sefaria Shabbat lesson source sheet for this week. We didn’t plan this Episode to so cleverly fit with the lesson, it simply turned out that way, we always trust the process that’s brought us together to serve a larger aim. In fact at the end of the episode I ask Lee to send me his lesson!

Torah in the Desert

Fun fact about me: I do indeed have an exceptional memory, nearly eidetic. As a little girl I had all my story books memorized and my mother had a challenge keeping me entertained and often made up stories on the fly because I remember everything. My earliest memories are from before age 2. I typically remember most if not all of what I read or hear, including strings of numbers. The rewiring of my brain that motherhood triggered diminished that eidetic ability a bit but it’s still very powerful and useful.

Show Notes

Summary :: Jihadi Jew aka Lee Weissman discusses his journey into teaching and the importance of being a good teacher. He shares his experience of teaching high school and the impact he wanted to have on students. He also talks about the struggle between belonging to a religious community and following one's own path. Our conversation touches on the concept of jihad and how it relates to personal growth and overcoming challenges. Lee shares his experience of engaging with young people who were considering joining extremist groups and how he was able to talk them out of it. He also discusses the importance of being eccentric and not conforming to groupthink within religious communities. Lee explores the tension between orthopraxy and orthodoxy within the Jewish faith community, particularly in relation to the topic of Zionism. We discuss the diversity of viewpoints within the Jewish community and the difficulty of having open and nuanced conversations about Zionism. We also touch on the challenges of discussing sensitive topics in the current political climate and the importance of focusing on values rather than politics. Our Conversation highlights the need for self-examination and the dangers of groupthink, emphasizing the importance of flexibility and the ability to adapt and grow.

Keywords :: teaching, high school, impact, struggle, belonging, religious community, jihad, personal growth, challenges, extremism, eccentricity, groupthink, orthopraxy, orthodoxy, Jewish faith community, Zionism, diversity of viewpoints, open conversations, sensitive topics, values, politics, self-examination, groupthink, flexibility, adaptability


  • Teaching can have a profound impact on students' lives, and being a good teacher is important.

  • The struggle between belonging to a religious community and following one's own path is a common challenge.

  • The concept of jihad can be understood as an inner struggle and a journey of personal growth.

  • Engaging with young people who are considering extremism can have a positive impact and help steer them away from harmful ideologies.

  • Being eccentric and not conforming to groupthink within religious communities can lead to personal growth and a unique perspective. The Jewish faith community is characterized by a diversity of viewpoints, which allows for open and nuanced conversations.

  • Discussions about sensitive topics like Zionism can be challenging, and it is important to focus on values rather than politics.

  • Self-examination is crucial in navigating the tension between orthopraxy and orthodoxy within religious communities.

  • Groupthink can hinder problem-solving and growth, making flexibility and adaptability essential.

  • The ability to have open and respectful conversations about difficult topics is crucial for personal and collective growth.

AI Generated Titles

  • Talking Young People Out of Extremism

  • The Impact of Teaching and Being a Good Teacher Values Over Politics: Focusing on What Matters

  • Navigating the Tension: Orthopraxy vs Orthodoxy

Sound Bites

  • "I am a person who struggles and who works hard."

  • "If I believe in the religion of moderation, then how can I be quiet?"

  • "I was talking to a lot of young people who were considering going on the way to ISIS."

  • "People who are doing more or less the same things, but may have very different ideas about why they're doing those things and different conceptions of how the system works around doing those things."

  • "It's so complicated because it's not as cut and dry and it just makes everything mucky."

  • "You have two different competing and or complementary visions of what the purpose of the Jewish project is."


00:00 Introduction and Recap

00:32 Discovering a Passion for Teaching

07:14 Understanding Jihad as a Journey of Personal Growth

12:22 Talking Young People Out of Extremism

26:51 Orthopraxy vs Orthodoxy

28:51 The Complexity of Discussing Zionism

32:27 Competing Visions of the Jewish Project

35:27 Values Over Politics

45:13 The Role of God in the Discussion

48:03 Taking Responsibility for Change


Bad Hijabi (00:03.607)

Okay, we're recording. So you're going to continue from last week. Last week you got to the point where you decided you didn't want to do the academic life. You came back from India, you had those weird things happen, you found the book, and you found that guy in the dream, and it ended up being his family that you met, and you decide you're gonna... Yes. Well, I cheated. I actually listened to the things many times so that I can know.

Lee Weissman (00:26.094)

You have a good memory. Okay, took notes.

Lee Weissman (00:32.622)

Bad Hijabi (00:33.399)

seem intelligent. So and then you decided you were going to teach kids. So and you said that teaching kids when you taught kids you realized that they were not really well they were there for the lesson but they were there for the lesson of you.

Lee Weissman (00:40.11)


Lee Weissman (00:51.086)

Yes. Yes. Yes. No, no, no, everything's fine.

Bad Hijabi (00:51.319)

Good. You're good there. You need to stop or something here. Okay.

Okay, so then tell it keep telling you know just tell the story from there about like teaching and like how what why did you want to teach and what did you get out of teaching and how did that add to your.

Lee Weissman (01:13.55)

Yeah, first of all, I always enjoyed teaching. I did some teaching as a graduate student when I was at the University of Chicago. I did some teaching and I really enjoyed it a lot. So I always knew that I wanted to teach. I figured as an academic, I would also be teaching. One of the things that disappointed me about academics is that there was less emphasis on

Bad Hijabi (01:14.391)


Lee Weissman (01:38.318)

being a good teacher and more emphasis on publishing and all that. And I didn't like that very much. Yeah. The publisher perish thing didn't make me very happy because I wanted to be a good teacher. And so actually I fell into teaching almost by accident. A friend of mine had been teaching high school and he said to me, listen, would you like to be

Bad Hijabi (01:42.423)

Performing, yeah.

Lee Weissman (02:07.374)

you know, would you like to take my job? I was like, what? He says, yeah, I think you'd be really good at it. I said, well, I don't actually know the subject. He says, he says, well, you know how to learn things, right? I said, yes, I do know how to learn things. So he said, well, you'll learn it and then you'll teach it. So I thought, okay, that's an interesting perspective. And so that's basically how I pitched myself to my future employer.

And then I started to teach kids with no idea actually. I had taught college, which is very different from teaching high school in certain respects, because they choose to be there. There's a big difference between people who choose to be someplace and people who are in imprisoned.

Bad Hijabi (02:55.319)

Well, what I remember about high school is it was really hard, not from an academic perspective, but just like life -wise. It's the crappiest time of childhood. It's so bloody hard. It's really hard.

Lee Weissman (03:09.774)

It is. It is. Yes. And it was really for me, it was really, it's very interesting. Like I, it was really, probably the worst part of my life was middle school and high school. And all of a sudden I'm stuck there forever. You know, like I'm for 25 years, I was in the graduating class, you know, and,

Bad Hijabi (03:25.879)

No. No.

Lee Weissman (03:39.278)

I got, it was very interesting. And part of it, and I think that part of what led me to want to be a high school teacher was my bad experience in high school. I had two or three amazing teachers. So I thought, okay, so if you're a really good teacher, if you're a really good teacher, and you're a really decent person to children, it can have a big impact on them. So.

I thought, okay, so this is my opportunity to kind of undo some of the bad stuff that I experienced in high school so that maybe they're out.

Bad Hijabi (04:14.615)

of like to interrupt you. One of the things I read or that you wrote or something was about, I think it was Hillel giving the advice of how to become a Jew, which was don't do things to people that you don't want done to you, essentially.

Lee Weissman (04:33.934)

Right, right, right. And really, I wanted to kind of undo some of the suffering I'd experienced in high school. And also I felt, you know, I have a very fancy, I have a fancy kind of a fancy education, you know, I would say. And it's a pretty broad education, thank God. And I thought,

Unfortunately, in religious schools, a lot of times the religious people that students encounter tend to be pretty parochial. Right? That tend to be pretty parochial. Right? Because the nature of our religious education is, you know, they send you to religious boarding schools, you often don't get much of a secular education at all, very few people.

Bad Hijabi (05:15.415)

Mm -hmm.

Lee Weissman (05:31.95)

Most of the rabbis didn't have secular educations. Most of the rabbis didn't have some kind of basic knowledge of the world. And I was a pretty cosmopolitan guy, you know, and I had been normal, right? So if that, you know, so like I understood the normal world, the non -religious secular world.

Bad Hijabi (05:58.199)

I just want to interrupt you there for a minute. What I found when I went to, I went to, I spent, so we were in school for 12 years. So I spent half of my first half of my schooling in public school and second half in Catholic school. I found the Catholic teachers that were not in the real world, like, cause there were like nuns and stuff. I found them to be very attachment, stupid.

Like I found them to be like really like you said parochial or whatever, but they didn't understand anything about human attachments and they didn't have a bloody clue about kids. And so, so yeah, I noticed that.

Lee Weissman (06:23.246)


Lee Weissman (06:34.99)

Right? Well, yeah, I mean, and it's a yes. So I thought, okay, if I have this fancy education, I might as well use it in Jewish education so that people will see, okay, there's a religious teacher, right? I have, you know, I cover my head, I got beard, payas, you know, I keep Shabbat, all those things, keep kosher, whatever else. But I'm also, but I also know a bunch of languages. I also know lots of things about a lot of things, which...

You know, I could always, I could always wow them with all the weird things that I knew.

Bad Hijabi (07:07.927)

and all the travel that you've done and stuff. I think that's really important when you're teaching kids that you've been to other places.

Lee Weissman (07:09.806)

Ryan, what is that? Right. Right.

Right, and kids, you know, and I had made the choice to be religiously observant, you know, knowingly, and I was still myself. I mean, I tried, I mean, you know, sometimes when people become observant, they kind of lose their previous selves, right? All of a sudden.

Bad Hijabi (07:39.159)

Well, you became observant to become yourself, not like we said before that this wasn't like a thing you just woke up one day and you decided that this was going to be your new project. It was something that you sort of just found yourself creeping into and you were like, wow, really? This is happening? I don't know about this. And so I think that's like a difference to become religious because that is who you are as opposed to becoming religious because of some other thing of clout chasing or something like that.

Lee Weissman (07:48.91)


Lee Weissman (07:55.854)


Lee Weissman (08:05.391)

Right. And I think a lot of people also, they adopt sort of a new persona. And I felt pretty comfortable in my own skin. And in any case...

Bad Hijabi (08:20.983)

One, I just want to sorry, interrupt you again, because this is one thing we ended last time. The whole struggle between the gang being belonging to the gang and like, like following your own path as a person in religion, like how do you, cause I know you obviously that's like a thing for you because of the moniker you chose.

Lee Weissman (08:32.43)

All right.

Lee Weissman (08:42.638)

Yes. Yeah, that was, yeah.

Bad Hijabi (08:44.919)

And that's actually why I'm sure that I, because someone had told me when my dad was dying, this is your jihad. Someone who's not Arabic or anything. Rabbi Robert said that, because I was away by myself in Winnipeg and we were on the phone and I was like, that's not falling apart. And he's like, this is your jihad. And then I just remember being like, looking up that word and being fascinated with that word, because there's all sorts of terrible things, stories about it. And that's actually how I found here.

like I found your blog and I was like, wow, that's really cool. But then that's like really rebellious for you to be that way. Because in the Jewish world, there is a definite definition or like if you say jihadist, this is like a jihadi. I'm jihad, I'm hunting the jihadis. Like we're not talking about some guy like you who looks like he could be from, you know, the whatever fiddler on the roof stuff, right? So like, how did like, like, why did you this is veering off a bit, but

Lee Weissman (09:17.198)

Lee Weissman (09:37.39)

Right. Yeah. Yes.

Bad Hijabi (09:44.087)

Like that really like I thought amused me. That's always why I kept coming back to you. Yes, you chose that terrible that really great terrible name that really must make a lot of people really mad.

Lee Weissman (09:55.534)

Yeah, it was, yeah, it got me, it got me in big trouble in the beginning. So I chose it, you know, there's a principle, you know, on Passover, we have a Passover special meal for Passover. And there are a few things we do in the meal, just so children will ask questions. So we do like an odd thing, and that odd thing and the children go are supposed to go like,

Bad Hijabi (10:01.479)


Lee Weissman (10:23.822)

Why did you do that? And then you explain, you know, well, okay. So the idea is to prompt a question. So for me, the idea of the name was to prompt a question. That was one dimension of it, right? And it was to open up a conversation. Why that conversation? So for me, this is my own spiritual...

my own spiritual issue. You know, many years ago, you know, I had a Sufi teacher, everybody knows about that, Professor Shah, and whose death anniversary was actually yesterday.

Bad Hijabi (11:05.099)

Mm -hmm.

Bad Hijabi (11:09.687)

a D -Day too. Wow. Interesting.

Lee Weissman (11:11.406)

Yeah, so yeah, so those is his death anniversary. So this, I mean, anything good I say should be in his memory. So, you know, we once talked about, talked about jihad and he was talking about, you know, jihad as kind of the inner struggle and, you know, and, you know, this, you know, the struggle with the nafs, the struggle with one's inner self. And I very much identified with that. And,

Bad Hijabi (11:39.031)


Lee Weissman (11:41.23)

Really, I see myself, you know, I can't say a lot of, you know, I can't say a lot of good things about myself. The one thing I can say is that I work hard. Okay, that I do struggle. Okay, I am not by nature, I'm not by nature, particularly good person. I'm not by nature, particularly anything, but I do try hard and I do struggle. And to me, that's like,

That's my, as we say in Yiddish, that's my milo. That's my good point. My good point in life is that I am a person who struggles and who works hard.

Bad Hijabi (12:22.167)

well, or like that sounds like, you know, it's hard work or something because people have this thing notion about struggle. Okay, now I'm not saying it's not hard work, but it sounds like it's a joyful struggle. Like you don't mostly unless you're like unless you're like really like really great at bullshitting us. Not saying that some days are hard. But like I think like that some people need to understand that like you know how in Islam they say the hardship is the ease.

Lee Weissman (12:33.518)

It's joyful.

Bad Hijabi (12:50.455)

And you know, stuff like that. And like, you know, the thing I wrote about, you know, blame and shame and, and all this stuff, you know, the porges and all, all of these things point to the same thing. Like that's the struggle, like, you know, is not like necessarily a bad thing. Woe is me, everyone hates me, but it's like, but it's like, it's a thing that you need to do. Okay. You know, about butterflies, cause you're a nature guy.

Lee Weissman (12:50.766)


Lee Weissman (13:08.654)

I saw that thing at odds.

Lee Weissman (13:16.878)


Bad Hijabi (13:17.015)

So like I have this, there's a butterfly museum in Victoria, which is like, you have to take the ferry to get there. And so when I go to the butterfly museum, I basically just go in front of the window where they have like the, I can't remember what it's called, but it's like a room where they're all like in cocoons and you can watch them. So like the thing with the butterfly is like the struggle is necessary in order for them to have life. So like, if you help a butterfly out of the cocoon, you basically kill it.

Lee Weissman (13:34.926)


Bad Hijabi (13:46.583)

So I love that. I love the story of a closure, and that's called a closure. And like, I love the story of a closure because like, and I've, like, I remember just like the anniversary of my dad's first death. I went, we went to the butterfly museum. I basically just stood there for hours and they just watched this one butterfly, like, and I watched him, like, he was all like, you know, he just looked like some like little thing. And then he was like, he had to like, you know, struggle and like,

Lee Weissman (14:03.918)

Mm -hmm.

Bad Hijabi (14:12.311)

get all of that water out of his wings and puff his wings up and stuff. It took like forever. And I just stood there and I got some of it on video and stuff. But the point is like, that's a struggle. Like to be born as a struggle. Like there's probably a reason why we don't remember. I guess it would be a terrible, it would be terribly traumatic to remember that. So I know I just like, that's kind of like, it's kind of important to have a struggle. And like, who was it that said one of the like wise Jewish sages said that like,

Lee Weissman (14:24.686)


Bad Hijabi (14:42.487)

think of everything as everything that you encounter as a blessing. Like everything is an opportunity. I don't know which wise person said that. Some rabbi. Yeah.

Lee Weissman (14:52.142)

Well, probably many, but the famous, the Baal Shem tov said that everything that you encounter has a lesson for the service of Hashem, right? So you have a...

Bad Hijabi (14:58.104)

Yeah. So like, if you recognize that you're like struggle, like, you know, salmon, the salmon swim upstream to get to their whatever, I don't know that that's such a bad way to be like, I don't know.

Lee Weissman (15:08.782)


Lee Weissman (15:12.334)

Right, and I think, I think it, I, I, for me, I thought it was a very, it's, it's an idea that I would not like to disown. Okay, and we, and by the way, in Jewish texts, I should point out that we, you know, we also talk about this struggle that comes up many times. It's, it's, there's, you know, even Avraham ben Arambam, the son of the greatest, you know, the greatest,

probably the greatest jurist in Jewish history, he writes, you know, he has in his book, it's called the Sefer al -Masbih, the book, the Guide to the Service of God, he talks about this whole idea of the jihad. And of course he writes in Arabic, he says, you know, about the inner struggle, duties of the heart, also talks about this struggle. And so I thought, you know,

Bad Hijabi (16:05.527)

Mm -hmm.

Lee Weissman (16:10.766)

It's important not to disown what are important ideas because those important ideas are abused in some way, right?

Bad Hijabi (16:18.455)

I really, I want to interrupt you again. It really, really makes me angry that that very, very beautiful word has been hijacked by a bunch of assholes. It just really daily makes me angry. So I actually, when I delve it, when I go into the once in a while, I have to write a thing about, you know, like a terrorist group or something like, and in that world, if there's like, you know, lots of like nomenclature and jargon and stuff, and there's a lot of people that are like, you know, I'm

Lee Weissman (16:28.942)


Bad Hijabi (16:45.911)

I'm hunting the jihadis and stuff. And like now when I think of the jihadi, I think of you and I'm like, I don't want to hunt my friend. I don't like, I don't need to talk. And it just feels like a really, it feels like a really like awful way to like see, you know, just it feels like a really terrible cynical way to look at the world. And, and we're always so, you know, we always have to say, okay, you know, everyone's really upset about, you know, extremism stuff that we keep.

Lee Weissman (16:53.326)

Well, thank you. I appreciate that. I appreciate that.

Lee Weissman (17:05.006)

You're right.

Bad Hijabi (17:15.895)

I feel like when we use those words in that way, we just keep promoting those ideas. So that's kind of one reason why I really like to, because I thought that was kind of daring and brave for you to be that way. And, you know, in a world where you're Orthodox, and so in the Orthodox world, I'm sure that that, you know, makes people uncomfortable and stuff.

Lee Weissman (17:30.766)


Lee Weissman (17:37.582)

It did. Yes, it made people very uncomfortable. It made people very uncomfortable.

Bad Hijabi (17:45.911)

And you have a community, like I can do anything. Like I don't really have like, you know, a big, you know, community of people I need to please or, or appease, you know, because that's been part of my journey is I lost all that stuff. So like, to be honest, I really don't care, but you have like, you know, you have a different social position and stuff. So you, you know, you have to feel that.

Lee Weissman (18:02.734)

Sure, and I had a job as a teacher in the Jewish community and things like that. I mean, it did create some interesting problems. I have to be truthful. I got some pushback. I had a stalker. That was unusual. Who apologized eventually, which is very interesting. It was terrifying, but eventually it was...

Bad Hijabi (18:09.111)


Bad Hijabi (18:28.631)

having a stalker is really, really scary. And there are people out there who like might just lose their like, it's like, get help. Like seriously, if anybody's listening, I've been stalked too. It's terrible. Just don't, just don't do it. Yeah.

Lee Weissman (18:36.942)

Yeah, it was, it was, it was, it was beyond.

Lee Weissman (18:42.638)

Yeah, it was beyond scary. But there was certainly some pushback. But for the most part, people were willing to engage in the conversation. And...

Bad Hijabi (19:02.839)

Do people see that when you, like what your intentions are? Because it's obvious that some people might choose that as a clout thing, right? But then you're not a clout person. You're genuinely on a greater jihad journey. You genuinely are, and everyone can see that.

Lee Weissman (19:11.054)

I think, no, I think, no. Right, people, I think, I think people eventually got it. I think people eventually got it. What was also interesting is during, you know, I, so I got on the internet just before ISIS. Okay, so I was, I was,

I sort of like, just when ISIS made its big internet push is when I kind of had chosen the name Jihadi Ju, right? Jihadi Ju, you know, there was Jihadi Jan. That was the amount of, I think that had something to do with it. In any case, I ended up, I ended up talking to a lot of young people who were like on their...

you know, considering going on the way to ISIS, which is really interesting. So for months and months and months, I was like having these conversations with young people. And I think, I think I was one of the most successful people in talking people out of going to ISIS. Yeah, it was a really weird. And it was what was so, what was so strange at the time was that I was getting all of these people who are like,

Bad Hijabi (20:27.703)

Wow, wow, that's cool.

Lee Weissman (20:37.422)

you know, you don't realize how much damage you're doing, how much horrible, you know, by having a name like this and whatever else. And I was like, and I was like, you have no idea, you know, what, what I've been doing here. I mean, I'm up till three or four o 'clock in the morning talking to some kid from the UK, you know, and, and talking him off the edge and you're sitting here giving me our time. yes. Yeah.

Bad Hijabi (20:50.583)

That's like, okay, I'm gonna.

Bad Hijabi (20:55.959)

That's cool. Okay, you've obviously, you've heard of, you've heard of Daryl Davis, right? You know who that is? I mean, that's like what Daryl Davis does. And so this reminds me of being a kid and learning about, you know.

because I grew up in the Christian world. So Jesus was the example. And then people used to, you know, the story used to be, you know, he used to hang out with all the bad people and stuff. And they'd be like, why are you doing that? You know, a little bit. And he'd be like, okay, well, you know, doctors don't hang out with healthy people, they hang out with sick people. So I'm just over here doing my thing, right? So that kind of like reminds me of that. And I didn't need to actually even know that. You don't really ever talk about that much in your thing, in your stuff. That's really like, that's a really important, interesting.

Lee Weissman (21:38.222)

Yeah, I don't, yeah, I, I, yeah.

Bad Hijabi (21:42.936)

you know, thing because it's really good to preach to the converted, but it's really cool that you had the like, and it's not like you were intending to do that because that isn't really your, your thing, but it's good that you fell into that, that, and you had the opportunity to sway people away from like becoming Shamima Bagram, right? You know, that story of like, right?

Lee Weissman (21:43.278)


Lee Weissman (21:52.91)

Right, that was not -

Lee Weissman (22:01.55)

Right, right. And it was really, I mean, honestly, it was a really interesting experience. And it was...

Bad Hijabi (22:11.383)

I think that's the journey of this thing, is not just to go get up every day and do your things and go to synagogue and teach your kids and all that stuff, that's all important. But if you have the opportunity to move one person away from the life of extremism, then I think that you've served God like more than, like many times over, you know.

Lee Weissman (22:31.406)

Yeah, you know, part of my inspiration, you know, I remember at its height, ISIS from their headquarters in Syria, or I guess it was in Iraq at that time, were producing 200 ,000 tweets a day. 200 ,000 tweets a day. So they were, you know, that was their...

That was their goal, was 200 ,000 tweets a day. So I remember thinking at the time, like, I mean, these people are using this communication. So I said, so, you know, if I believe in the religion of moderation, then, you know, then how can I be, you know, how can I be quiet? So in any case, yeah, the name has certainly been an interesting experience.

I feel bad that there are some people who won't engage because of the name, because they're afraid of the NSA, they're afraid of the security, they're going to be somehow associated with the word jihad and jihadi.

Bad Hijabi (23:44.727)

Hello, big brother. How are you today? Are you getting grabbing another donut from your box? I mean, whatever, right? I don't know. Maybe that has professional consequences for people, but I don't know. So, wow, that's like really cool that you, I never even knew that you had the opportunity to like talk to a lot of young people who thought, hey, this is Ji -Ha -Di -Ju. And then they ended up talking to someone who talked them out of the worst.

Lee Weissman (23:50.734)

Yeah, yeah, so.

Lee Weissman (23:56.11)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I.

Lee Weissman (24:07.022)


Bad Hijabi (24:14.423)

maybe the worst decision of their life right?

Lee Weissman (24:16.48)

What would have been the worst decision of your life? Yes. Yeah, I mean, I think I did a good job, honestly. I'm going to be honest. I think I did a good job.

Bad Hijabi (24:31.383)

That's really cool. Like, you know, and then you like, you know, like made a bit, maybe there was like some social sacrifices that you had to make or like we already just covered that. But so I don't know. I think that's like, but.

Lee Weissman (24:44.686)

Right. Honestly, I think in the end, I think in the end, the most people got it. There's something to be seen when we talk about the community, there's something to be said for developing a reputation as being slightly eccentric. So I think I have...

Bad Hijabi (24:59.863)

Yes, I think I find that. Yeah, I find that's really hard. And you have to let that's the thing about the like the group think and the tribal thing, because I think at some point, if you're not careful, being in a religion can feel like you're in a gang. Like at some point lately, even like what's the difference between, you know, in the days in past days when I had a different life, you know, if I used to go to the place.

Lee Weissman (25:16.718)


Bad Hijabi (25:27.895)

And it was basically like, you know, a clubhouse for for Hell's Angels. And there's a bunch of guys sitting around the table and they had like a thing and it was like, it could be like, it could be a prayer meeting or like it could be like, you know, a synagogue or a temple or anything, but it wasn't, it was a clubhouse for a bunch of guys. And some lately religion feels like that. So like, what is the difference between any one of you, whoever you, whoever, not you specifically, your religion.

And like a house angels clubhouse, like sometimes it doesn't, you know, there is the same level of self -examination, which is like zero, right?

Lee Weissman (26:03.662)

Right, and I think that that's, and for me, that's a really, for me, that's a really, that's really an important, a really important point. And I think it's also, you know, so one of the things, one of the things I think that's,

I'll be kind of controversial in some respect. Judaism as a religion has always been pluralistic in some respects. Not necessarily in the sense, we have this concept of orthoprax, right? There's a kind of common ground, at least among Orthodox Jews, and I use that word Orthodox because that's what the word people use.

But let me say orthoprax for a second. People who are doing more or less the same things. But you have a lot of people who are doing more or less the same things, but may have very different ideas about why they're doing those things and different conceptions of how the system works around doing those things. And I think that's always been true. And at the same time, there have always been kind of forces.

Bad Hijabi (26:54.487)

Mm -hmm.

Lee Weissman (27:20.046)

that have wanted to kind of mold that into a group think. And said, don't.

Bad Hijabi (27:28.439)

I really think that's the power of the Jewish faith community is the fact that if you took a room full of like, say, 10 Jewish people and talk to them about a thing, you would at least get five different viewpoints, maybe 10, and they would all be fairly valid and probably reasonable. And no blood would be drawn and everything would be fine because that's the discourse. But...

Lee Weissman (27:44.846)


Bad Hijabi (27:57.207)

I mean, like I said, I've been in the other religions and like, I don't know. I think that's part of the mindset is like, we're talking about it and like not agreeing and saying, okay, well, we're not gonna agree on this. There's so many ways that like, if you're on the outside, like everyone has this thing about, everyone needs to have an opinion about Zionism.

Like, are you kidding? I think really, to be very honest, I think that's like a thing for Jewish people to like the Jewish community to work out. What is that now? Do we need, does the Jewish community need it? What does that mean? What's the difference between Zionism and Israeli nationalism? What does, you know, that mean for people that don't live in Israel? What does it mean for people that live in Israel? What does that mean for like the Jewish faith, you know, all this stuff? Like, and everyone has an opinion about that.

But like, it's so complicated because it's not as cut and dry and it just makes everything mucky and...

Lee Weissman (28:54.958)

But it's become very hard.

It's become very hard to have those conversations. Somebody said to me the other day, they were complaining. I'm trying to remember exactly the words because it was impressive. They said that my opinions...

Lee Weissman (29:20.718)

don't represent the Jewish communal consensus. I'm not sure the word was consensus, the Jewish communal opinion or the Jewish communal. Well, it was interesting because I think that there is and there isn't. I think there is and there isn't. I think there's an agreement.

Bad Hijabi (29:27.447)

What is that? There is no such thing.

Bad Hijabi (29:36.407)

There's no such thing though.

Lee Weissman (29:49.134)

I think there's an agreement that in a time of trouble, in a time when people feel very unsafe, that we don't have those conversations. Right? Right. Right.

Bad Hijabi (29:57.687)

Mm -hmm.

Bad Hijabi (30:04.535)

Yes, yes, I agree. That's why that thing I showed you from the Black Sheep. And she wrote about Zionism. She's a Cuban American. And she, you know, wrote about it. And they had this whole discussion and her like her intellectual, her partner that she's doing this with is like some Jewish guy who seems to have a real like hate on for Israel and whatever that is, I don't know. But so like, I think it's a bit like I get that these conversations need to be had, but.

Like I think it's really convenient for us sitting here in North America where we don't have like rockets flying overhead and we don't have like, you know, the thing, cause let's face it, anyone who's been to Israel, like they say that when you go there, like it's very much still October the 7th and there's still a lot of that. So it's really easy for us to sit here in our lives where no one's gonna like, no one's coming for us to talk about these things and stuff. And the problem with saying,

you know, Zionism and is Zionism a good idea and stuff? There's not enough like, you know, like social intelligence in the, in the public discourse right now, because everyone's mad and everyone thinks everyone's the enemy and stuff to appreciate that. Like when people are like, Zionism, everyone thinks that, let's just wipe Israel off the map and let's just take all like, let's have, you know, take all the Jews off the planet and stuff. And that's not like when we're saying, okay, is Zionism a good idea?

We're not saying that we're saying like, is it really a good, how do you, how do you like make the God thing match up the like race thing? Because ultimately, the end thing of Zionism is that this is like a race of people. And like, then like, the practice of Judaism is attached to a place like you said, and with this whole thing about the Torah and the

desert and there's, you know, Abraham was an Iraqi and like, you know, there's all sorts of ways that, that Judaism has come about and it's so powerful and spiritual because it is not attached to a place because Jews are always exiled. They're never like the dominant force anywhere. They, that's the struggle to me that is. So then how does that match up with like, you know,

Lee Weissman (32:27.534)

Well, it's...

Bad Hijabi (32:28.119)

Israel becoming God and all this stuff. That's like kind of where we're at right now, right? Am I wrong?

Lee Weissman (32:30.862)

Right, well, it's very complicated because it's complicated in the sense that you have two different competing and or complementary visions of what the purpose of the Jewish project is.

Okay? So if you understand, you know, there's, you know, Rav Schimpson Raphael Hirsch was a 19th century German scholar, very profound German scholar. You know, he says, you know, why was the Torah given in the desert? So this is why the Torah given in the desert? Why not give the Torah in the land of Israel? He says, because in order for you to know that

that the values and ideas exist independently of the land. Meaning to say that most cultures are defined by their geography. You're Azerbaijani because you live in Azerbaijan. You're Armenian because you live in Armenia. You're French because you live in France. You're German because you live in Germany. We can argue about that. We can say, this is France, this is Germany. We can argue about that.

Bad Hijabi (33:58.775)

Mm -hmm.

Lee Weissman (34:00.782)

But your identity is really connected to place. So according to Rabbi Shimon Shonah Yelchersh, God wanted to establish an identity that was independent of place. That was independent of place. So that became the guiding force.

behind the culture was a set of ideas and values and attitudes. Then coming at the right, but then of course coming into the land and the land was the place where those things were supposed to be actualized. So the land is a field, so to speak. It's a, the land is a field, an appropriate field in order to be able to enact those values.

Bad Hijabi (34:48.983)

Mm -hmm.

Lee Weissman (34:59.95)


Making the transition, right? Making the transition between those two, between those two things. Okay, so now I say, okay, so how do those values manifest in, you know, in this new, in this new entity, right? It's very difficult, especially, I will add, when that new entity is involved with power, right? Power.

is especially in the power, especially in the modern world, especially as things developed over the 19th and 20th century, power and the idea of nationalism, which is, which is, which is, I,

Bad Hijabi (35:39.895)

Mm -hmm.

Lee Weissman (35:43.982)

I would say that what religious Jews often refer to as Zionism, which is kind of the love of the land that's kind of embedded in our religion, is not at all identical with European nationalism. I don't think it's...

Bad Hijabi (35:59.511)

Mm -hmm.

Bad Hijabi (36:06.743)

And one thing I have learned from being in the Muslim world a bit is there's real confusion about all of these things because there is not the ability or knowledge base to appreciate. Like one thing I think is that a lot of people think that Zionism is Qehanism.

Lee Weissman (36:28.43)

Right, correct. Right, right, right. So, right, so a lot of people, right, so a lot of people, right, so a lot of people, right, a lot of people understand Zionism as being the most extreme, the Hanism being the most extreme Palestinian hating, right, you know, Arab hating.

Bad Hijabi (36:29.335)

I think that it's not, I don't know. I think it's a spectrum.

Bad Hijabi (36:45.655)

And can we point out that Khan was an American? You know, so like, so like, you know, he was some guy from Brooklyn, right?

Lee Weissman (36:49.486)

Yes, no, Gahanah was right. Right, right, right, he was from Brooklyn. Yeah, from Brooklyn. Right, I mean, and really, honestly, I mean, I don't want to get into the whole thing, but a lot of that has to do with American race relations, and it's essentially kind of American race relations kind of imported into Israel. Right, it's kind of like...

Bad Hijabi (37:12.023)

trying to project itself onto the world. That's kind of it. Is that like a scene as a struggle in the Jewish world? Because, you know, obviously the American Jewish community is very powerful and a big part of the global Jewish. This is my impression. Maybe I'm wrong. Correct me. But is that like a sort of a thing? Because I find that being Canadian and just living like most Canadians live like within a like a very short drive of America.

And one thing that really annoys the shit out of all of us is the fact that America is like, they see it because you're so big and powerful. We love you and stuff. But like, there's this blind, there's this like conception. this is how it is in America. Everything is race based. And so therefore everyone else has to be the same way. Like, I wonder if that's like a struggle because obviously the Jewish community is not just America. There's like Mizrahi Jews, you know, there's like, you know that, right? And so there's.

Lee Weissman (38:09.166)

Right, so obviously there are very different approaches. I think, you know, Kahane brought, you know, an American racial approach, I think, to Zionism that has certainly caught on among some people and now has power in the Israeli government with

Bad Hijabi (38:35.095)

Mm -hmm.

Lee Weissman (38:38.414)

you know, Ben Gavir, you know, Ben Gavir and Mr. Smoltrich were both both kind of of that of that ilk.

But, you know, that, and the discussion about Zionism is a big long one, but trying to kind of square what this new entity is going to be like, especially when new entity is kind of among the nations using military power and the very strange situation that, you know, that it finds itself in, you know, after 1948,

you know, with the, with the.

with Palestinian refugees and later coming to control the West Bank and Gaza and everything else, all of this is very difficult.

Bad Hijabi (39:42.423)

I really think that this whole thing also from being in the Muslim world, I think like it's kind of like become a fixation like on both like it's really become like a distraction. It's become a really like silly ridiculous thing because it's like taken like you said last time, you know, Israel sort of took the place of God. It's like, no, you know, you can't write this paper on.

the Jewish conception of God that's not Jewish enough here, right? But the Israeli national park system. I think that's a really great story. We love this story. We've listened to this episode a number of times. Robert and I laugh. We laugh about it. He loves this so much because it's symbolic of what happens when you, me, this is what I think because like I said, I grew up in the aftermath and so politics and God, we're not together, right?

Lee Weissman (40:19.182)


Bad Hijabi (40:32.919)

So I think that any time you try to marry politics and God together, this is where you end up. You end up with people fighting over that. It's like this clip from crucifications in one of the things that we wrote that said, the divine, what is it, God has a veto or something. The parties of God have a veto on it and everyone knows this is true. And like,

Everyone's like, but this is my what my, you know, God says. But then, like, it's the same God. And like, we're making God really unhappy by fighting over this thing. I just think it's real distraction. And it really causes people to behave badly and act like they they they belong to Hell's Angels. And and like, I think that when you are arguing over this stuff.

Lee Weissman (41:21.326)


Bad Hijabi (41:26.519)

And I'll be honest, I sort of agree that the discussion about Zionism needs to happen. The discussion about what is Jewish self -determination when you're not an Israeli needs to happen. Because I think that, like, to be very honest from my side, the people in the Jewish diaspora who are not Israelis right now are really, really, really carrying a lot of suffering. That's a judgment call, I just said that.

But like we're paying for something is happening way over there. Anyone who is Jewish and supportive thereof, right? So that discussion needs to happen. But I really also think like the other Muslims or whoever have a problem with this, like also need to have their own discussion about like, what are their values and what are they like, you know, so that's why I love Safi because he's like, what are the values? This is what the Quran says and stuff. and it says all that other stuff too, but that's not important right now. We're not.

going to talk about that because that stuff divides us. Like we really like that other thing about Zionism needs to happen but I really don't think that it's helpful right now because a lot of people are like okay look at all these Jewish people think that Zionism is bad maybe that means we can you know what I mean like I really like I get that I get that people think they get mad when we talk about it and stuff but ultimately that can't be held over

Everyone's head forever and you said in one of your things like there's no such thing as an eternal victim And I like I feel like this is the struggle now of that of the well you we can't talk about that because that's dangerous Okay, we need to talk about that then but then we need to be able to talk about it in such a way that the supreme dickhead And his you know, our IRGC assholes are not going to take that as permission to go around and commit mass slaughter because I do like I'm a very aware

that there are like bad faith actors and there are people that wanted to kill people like you. Mass slaughter and stuff, right? That's not a unrealistic fear. So I get that. That's why this is a complicated conversation that you can't have if you unless you're like in a green zone.

Lee Weissman (43:39.31)

I believe that you can have these conversations, but you have to decide on the terms of the conversation. I only talk about values. I never talk about politics because I don't care about politics. Politics is about power, and power is something which is morally neutral.

Bad Hijabi (43:52.759)

Mm -hmm.

Lee Weissman (44:09.358)

which is more.

Bad Hijabi (44:09.911)

It's complicated anytime you introduce politics into it, you've introduced power dynamics and you've introduced like a hierarchy. And that is to me like tribalism and it's gang signaling and it's incompatible with the journey of like the greater jihad and like wrestling with the angels and like the all of these things of promoting values and stuff. We have to be aware of that it's over there.

Lee Weissman (44:13.838)

You know...

Lee Weissman (44:29.486)


Bad Hijabi (44:34.487)

But I don't really think that like that should be the major discussion. I just want to be aware of the fact that it's a struggle for a lot of people. And it is a block to God. To me it is. Because if you're focused on this thing where you're fighting over a piece of land and you're fighting over who's right in that, because ultimately that's what this is, who's right, then like you can't have self -examination and all of these things that you need to get to God. Like you lost that, you know?

Lee Weissman (45:02.958)

Well, God kind of gets lost in all of this as being kind of, you know, as God becomes just our cheerleader.

Bad Hijabi (45:13.623)

Well, he's not there anymore. You can't have God if you are in this place where you're accusing everyone of, you know, this or that or the other thing. If you are in the blame and shame mode, then God is not there. Like, or he's there, but you can't get to him. This is kind of my point, you know.

Lee Weissman (45:29.998)

I try as much as possible to shy away from the politics of power and to talk about the values, what's fair, what's human, what does God want?

Bad Hijabi (45:48.055)

I think that's really important. I think that's important because we probably really had very, very, very diametrically opposed views of things on October the 8th. And we never talked about it. I never talked about that with you because that's not the connection I have with you. Now we can because, you know, we are like we have some, you know, understanding and stuff. But like I don't like I said, I don't really care because that discussion always goes in a circle.

Like it always goes in a circle. Like, and it's like you said, telling in one of your things, telling somebody more facts is not going to like change them. Like you think a thing and that's fine. And I think thing and that's fine. We get whatever. Right. So I don't know. I, I like, I think like, I don't know if we have these conversations because like, you know, we have like been going on for like, well, how long is it now? Eight months. And we have, can you show up? We talked several times in a week. We don't.

argue about it. It's like, like, like it's okay to have these different viewpoints because I do see all of that stuff. I see everything, you know, the whole, you know, like, because I read something just this morning of like a very conservative person, like, you know, let's put the blame where it belongs. You know, there's evil people and stuff. We had this conversation before, it would be really nice if there were monsters and you know, we could say, look, that's the monster class over there.

We're the really good people. We didn't do this. But like, that's really not like, that's really like egotistical or whatever to think that because everyone like, I don't like blaming the victim. And that's not what this is. It's a bigger, it's bigger. It's a bigger thought than that. But that to say, okay, this one religion did this, this one group of people did this. This is just Hamas that did this. And I'm going to say again, yes, it was horrible. Everything.

But I think to say, this is Hamas, and if we just eliminate Hamas, everything will be better. I really think that's naive. I really just think that's wrong. I don't know.

Lee Weissman (47:55.534)

Well, again, I'll leave that to the political thinkers and strategists. But...

Bad Hijabi (48:03.543)

Let's bring it back to the religious value that says your story about Yona when he woke up and the ship was whatever and he said, it's my responsibility.

Lee Weissman (48:13.166)

Right. He says, my responsibility. And I think that that's, and for me, look, you cannot, you know, the blame game doesn't work very well because you can't control somebody else's behavior. Right? I can point the finger at somebody else and I can say, you did this, you did this, you did this, but I have no control over what they do now. Okay. So all I have is control, all I have control over is my responsibility.

Bad Hijabi (48:32.567)


Bad Hijabi (48:40.439)

It's very weak position. It's a very weak position to say, look at you made me. This is kind of like when you're five and you're like, look what you made me do. Right. I mean, hopefully by now we've have a little bit more like resources to manage the conflict and like to get past that, because ultimately, yes, this is for both sides of the conflict. It is going to come to, okay, what can I do to change the situation? Because yes, all of these things are true. Maybe that.

this happened and whatever, but you're right. We don't have control over that. And then it ends up becoming this like giant downward spiral. So how do you stop the spiral? Well, you can only stop it. You can only change your own behavior, right? So I don't know. I think if you're like you said, your professor Shaw said, and even religious instruction that doesn't include self -examination really is not.

Lee Weissman (49:33.006)

Right. And I think that one of the dangers of groupthink is that groupthink discourages any kind of self -examination. It's a real, you know, it's, you know, we have an expression in Hebrew, Michutz le machane, outside the camp, right? There are people who are inside the camp and outside the camp. And...

Bad Hijabi (49:54.647)

Mm -hmm. I feel like it's good to be outside the camp, maybe like in a nuanced way. Like you're still a part of a community, but you're sort of outside the camp. And you sort of like that because it's a better place to be in order to seek God. Because I feel like if you're inside the camp, there's all sorts of like, you know, clout and there's like influencing and there's like...

Lee Weissman (50:07.214)

A riot has happened for...

Bad Hijabi (50:21.463)

being the guru and all of these things, and it takes away from your journey, right?

Lee Weissman (50:21.614)

Right, but it's really...

But to say somebody is outside the camp is really like, it's harsh, right? It's harsh.

Bad Hijabi (50:34.007)

Well, but I see it as a good thing. Like, I see people like Ben Shapiro being inside the camp. You know what I mean? And I love him. He's got a purpose, and he's great and clever and stuff. But he is not who I'm choosing to take me to God. Okay.

Lee Weissman (50:39.854)


Lee Weissman (50:45.006)

Right, I think sometimes, right.

Lee Weissman (50:55.47)

Right. So I think, so I think, I think that there is a benefit. I think there's, I think there's a benefit to not worrying too much, right? That your, your, your main concern, your main concern has to be with your main main concern has to be with doing the will of your creator, right? Not whether you're inside the camp or you're outside the camp and not to say, right. I mean,

Bad Hijabi (51:16.727)


Bad Hijabi (51:21.527)

And what people will think about what you said and will people like me and stuff like that. That's a really hard thing to, you know.

Lee Weissman (51:26.638)

Right. And it is hard. We all want to listen. We all want to be well, want to be liked. We want to feel you want you want to feel want to feel okay. We certainly want to, you know, I get accused a lot, you know, like, well, you know, you're willing to criticize your fellow Jews, but you're not criticizing other people. Hamas, you know, you're not, you know, I don't criticize Hamas because first of all, Hamas doesn't care what I say. Second of all, Hamas has nothing to do with me.

They're not my people. They're not doing anything in my name.

Bad Hijabi (51:57.815)

You said that in a recent post, you said, I care about my people. I don't, I care about my Jewish people, right?

Lee Weissman (52:02.702)

If Hama starts speaking in my name, of course, we'll correct that. But thank God they don't claim to be speaking for me. And they don't claim to be acting on my behalf, so I don't have much to say about that. But you know...

Bad Hijabi (52:26.839)

I really feel like ultimately we're getting, we're almost at, we're like 52 minutes. So we're gonna like wrap. I'm aware that you have the time limits and you're training me very well. Thank you. Limits are love. But so the struggle that a lot of people have with religion, what keeps a lot of people from God is the fact of this thing that we're talking about right now is the fact of the struggle between the tribal gang think and like, you know,

Lee Weissman (52:38.67)

to my bed.

Bad Hijabi (52:56.311)

the values, because like I've said in one of my things I just did, sometimes seeking God and wanting to belong to a religion are like those two, those two objectives will conflict. And people often are faced with a choice. And most people, because we are socially, you know, social creatures and social connection is like a biological imperative, we choose the gang. So,

But how do you like, how do people like, I don't know how we do this and I don't know how you do it. Maybe it's a character thing or maybe it's just, I don't know, suffering or, or whatever. How do people make the choice to be like, okay, well, I'm going to sometimes do this anyway, even if I'm outside the camp, I don't really care because like at the end of the day, right? That's hard to do. It's not easy.

Lee Weissman (53:44.494)

Well, I feel like I feel like this is probably largely temperamental. You know, I think some people are hurt. Some people are hurt more herd animals than others. You know, I happen not to be

Bad Hijabi (53:59.767)

So maybe it's the difference between, sorry to interrupt you, maybe it's the difference between being the ornery sheep and being like the shepherd or like the border collie. Remember I told you once border collies are really smart and they're not, they don't exactly like, they're not obedient because they're the ones who are hurting everyone around.

Lee Weissman (54:10.318)

Right, yes.

Lee Weissman (54:16.558)

Yes. Yes. My sister has two border colleagues. My sister has two border colleagues and when you take them out on outings, they herd you. They kind of like, they try to keep you together. So if you're like four or five people in the family, they sort of nip at your feet and push you to keep you together. Yeah, I think some people are herd animals.

more by nature and feel very comfortable with gang signs and so on. And those things are very important to them. And I'm totally okay with that. I'm more nervous when the gang signs become, when it becomes thought policing. That to me becomes dangerous because then we lose the ability to grow.

Bad Hijabi (54:58.999)

yeah, yeah.

Bad Hijabi (55:06.871)


Lee Weissman (55:14.19)

And especially when it comes to serving God, I think that a certain neuroplasticity, a certain, I don't want to say the word flexibility because that'll upset people, but a certain, an ability to grow, an ability to change and to adapt and develop is really important.

Bad Hijabi (55:33.847)

Plasticity is the right word. It's exactly what it is. Yeah.

Lee Weissman (55:40.302)

And what happens with groupthink is we end up with the common flexibility and the ability to solve problems becomes much, much less. You can't solve problems because you become locked in to one way of seeing, you become locked into one solution. And, and.

Bad Hijabi (55:48.567)

You can't. You can't. You can't.

Bad Hijabi (56:00.695)

And you like you literally don't have access to that part of your brain that is the going to be the creative, you know, circuitry and all of those things. And that's like one of the things that Porges said is that people who are like, you know, forced to or by whatever contextual social situation or whatever, end up having to spend most of their life in a threat state, in a permanent threat state.

They never get to know who they are because the only way that you can discover who you are as a person is by being able to get to that level where you can be creative. This is what he calls it, being creative, like, you know, being collaborative, being able to like, you know, see solutions and, you know, feeling like you can do things and stuff. And so I think this is like, you know, being co -regulated and being socially safe. This, you know,

Lee Weissman (56:48.302)

in the next one.

Bad Hijabi (56:56.311)

I mean, safe in the biological sense is kind of the same thing as like communing with God. I don't know. I just see it as.

Lee Weissman (57:04.782)

Okay, we'll take up that next week. I gotta go.

Bad Hijabi (57:07.799)

Yep, it was a good conversation. Thank you. Have a good Shabbat. Can you send me your send me your lesson for this week?

Lee Weissman (57:10.318)

Okay, very good. My pleasure.

Yes, I will. I'll send. I'll send. OK.

Bad Hijabi (57:16.791)

Okay, have a good Friday.

Adventures of Bad Hijabi
Conversations Podcast
can religion be a solution to, rather than the cause of, human suffering? a blog and a podcast about dehumanization, spirituality, and religion.